topic Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!! in Android TV

KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Hector69X — Thu, 17 Aug 2017 18:58:30 GMT

Guys I really need your help here. I want to buy this KDL-40W700C tv only as my Gaming Monitor. I need at least 60 Hz refresh rate but in the last moment I figured out behind Sony’s Marketing “200 Hz” thing it says “Panel Refresh Rate is 50 Hz”!

I literally don’t care about Motion Flow but will my Graphics Card show 60 Hz in my PC Display Settings?

Lots of Thanks in Advance.

Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 06:20:42 GMT

I am not exactly sure whether panels are still 50Hz/100Hz in Europe while they are 60Hz/120Hz in America.

Mine is also a European model and when I run Android TV and apps, the display refreshes at a permanent 60Hz, except for when I switch to Live TV, where the TV switches to 50Hz for smooth PAL playback.

Also most mobile devices shoot video at 30/60fps. On Netflix and Amazon, basically everything is 24fps. All this content plays much better at 60Hz. So I don't think that it makes sense to sell 50Hz-only panels in Europe anymore.

As for HDMI inputs, you can easily put it to 60Hz. But this has always been the case. This option is in the EDID and you can therefore select it in the settings panel of your graphics card.

Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Jecht_Sin — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:45:44 GMT

I have never understood that 50/60 Hz thing either. To have panels at 50 Hz max would be just dumb. Especially with consoles (Sony making the PlayStation(s) is also a factor). Also considering that sure it doesn't take much nowdays to make 60Hz panels that can switch to 50Hz as well. Which should be made for the USA and other markets anyway.

Still, comparing the USA and EU spec sheets for the same TVs it seems that EU panels are at 50Hz indeed. At least (only?) for the MotionFlow. It must be another reason why personally I keep it disabled. I don't really really like its effect much.

Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 10:17:31 GMT

Android says that the display runs at 60Hz. And I can easily verify it by playing PAL content via PVR add-on in Kodi with Motionflow being disabled which results in micro-judder. So I have to engage motion interpolation to get smooth PAL playback in the Android 3rd party app context...

Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Jecht_Sin — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 10:21:58 GMT

@Kuschelmonschter Yeah, I meant to ask but I have forgot. How do we check the screen refresh rate in Android TV? I mean, in the small dumb Bravia I have I just press the i+ button..

Betreff: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 10:34:47 GMT

Refresh rate can be read via some Android API. Several apps like Kodi display it.

If you don't trust this API there is a frame callback API too which gets called on a VSync. This is typically used for video timing. You can also count the calls per second = VSyncs per second = refresh rate.

To determine refresh rate in a non-programmatic way, one can also use Kodi's refresh rate samples. Just check which of them plays free of judder with Motionflow being disabled.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

hvalentim — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:08:34 GMT

Considering most content comes encoded at 25FPS, a 60Hz refresh rate still allows a reasonable degree of interpolation. As for the "200 Hz" bogus, I guess they mean the interpolation engine speed.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:20:11 GMT

hvalentim schrieb:
Considering most content comes encoded at 25FPS, a 60Hz refresh rate still allows a reasonable degree of interpolation.

Whaaaat?

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

hvalentim — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:48:31 GMT

Most content I am watching on my TV is encoded at ~25 frames per second (the animation is generated by a sucession of 25 still images per second). 60hz means the TV is cable of refreshing the screen/image 60 times per second. Hence, it is still possible to inject/generate a one in between frame to make the motion look smoother.

Do you disagree with the reasoning?

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Jecht_Sin — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:22:44 GMT

@hvalentim Actually the ideal is that 24fps video should be interpolated at 50 Hz (actually.. 48 Hz). Otherwise, at 60Hz 20% of frames get doubled. That's why a 120 Hz display is good. 120 = 5x24. At least so is my understanding.

@Kuschelmonschter Sorry to bother you again.. but how exactly would you show the fps in Kodi? Not that it really should matter, I am very positive that the refresh rate is 60 Hz. I have checked a video in YouTube days ago, with a round clock where the arm was moving 60 times in a second and it felt natural to me (although too fast. I can't really follow it. But it didn't seem to skip anything).

Still it doesn't explain why the Motionflow has a base of 50Hz. Nor how it works with 30Hz signals.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:04:43 GMT

Jecht_Sin schrieb:
@Kuschelmonschter Sorry to bother you again.. but how exactly would you show the fps in Kodi? Not that it really should matter, I am very positive that the refresh rate is 60 Hz.

Go to Settings > System Information. The value is read via Display API (see methods getMode and getRefreshRate).

Jecht_Sin schrieb:
Still it doesn't explain why the Motionflow has a base of 50Hz.

I think those are just numbers on a brochure. I think that panels and Motionflow are the same all over the world. I could be wrong though .

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Jecht_Sin — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:45:21 GMT

Kuschelmonschter wrote:
Jecht_Sin schrieb:
@Kuschelmonschter Sorry to bother you again.. but how exactly would you show the fps in Kodi? Not that it really should matter, I am very positive that the refresh rate is 60 Hz.
Go to Settings > System Information. The value is read via Display API (see methods getMode and getRefreshRate).

Do you mean this (the 4K video is playing in background. It just doesn't show in the screenshot)?

Apart that it is wrong, it shows 1080p. I had this issue since ever with Kodi, I have never managed to see 2160p anywhere. Otherwise, pressing "o" with a "BT keyboard" (not really. I use "Typeeto" which turns my Mac into an BT keyboard. Very neat! Recommended to @Anonymous ! ) I get this:

But I think that actually shows the media info, not what or how it's really playing. At least for the Video Stream part. I see indeed that disabling the HW acceleration the videos stutter but it still shows 59.940 FPS.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:56:09 GMT

'O' shows you the properties of the source material, not the display.

Android and all app GUIs are rendered at 1920x1080 on Sony. That's why you see it everywhere. A 4K GUI would just not be feasible on the weak MediaTek SoC. It later gets upscaled to 4K. The video pipeline is a different path. So you can decode and render a 4K video via MediaCodec Surface while rendering the GUI in 1080p. That's what Kodi does...

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

hvalentim — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:10:04 GMT

Kuschelmonschter wrote: I think those are just numbers on a brochure. I think that panels and Motionflow are the same all over the world.

This website seems to have the details right:

http://www.displayspecifications.com

Substantial differences appear to exist.

For instance, whereas my KD-55XD8005 model features a refresh rate of 60hz with an interpolation value of 400mhz:

http://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/0d686a2

a KD-55XE8577 model does offer a 120hz refresh rate with a 1000mhz interpolation value:

http://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/fcaecdb

60hz refresh rates seem to be on the low end side these days.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:22:38 GMT

Yes of course. I am not talking about 60Hz vs. 120Hz. That exists for real and it is the real refresh rate of the panel. I was talking about 50/100Hz (Europe) vs. 60/120Hz (America).

I don't know what the difference between XR400 and XR1000 is, but don't even think about translating it to refresh rate somehow (MHz is totally wrong anyway...). Probably XR400 lacks BFI (black frame insertion) or something as XR is not only about interpolation. Those numbers are total marketing BS anyway...

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

hvalentim — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:01:16 GMT

My XR400 model claims to have black frame insertion.

But the all Motion Flow thing is mostly a marketing gimmick, no doubt about that.

For reference purposes, these two articles are enlightening (particularly the first):

What is the Refresh Rate? 60Hz vs 120Hz

Fake Refresh Rate Conversion. Samsung Clear Motion Rate vs Sony MotionFlow vs LG Motion Clarity Index

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

sonyw805c — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:48:52 GMT

no i dont agree with that

Motion interpolation is THE reason why i buy higher quality TVs (6/7/8/9xxx Model numbers) and prefer this picture over classical cinema 24 fps presentation.

What i don´t like is this: You don´t exactly know what you really get..

Is this certain function (low medium high) now Motion interpolation with OR without black frame insertion?

The problem isn´t the feature, it´s how it is called in the menu...

-> Stupid names for great technical features are IMHO the problem.

btw: My first HQ Tv was a Philips with "Pixel Plus" and "Digital Natural Motion"

This wasn´t only marketing in 2003 - The difference on this CRT was like day and night

http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/cpindex.pl?scy=DE&slg=EN&ctn=36PW9618/12

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

Jecht_Sin — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 08:38:11 GMT

@Kuschelmonschter I'd say that whatever the XR number is if the max refresh rate is 60Hz there isn't much to interpolate. So it does sound a bit like commercial crap to me. But sure, with a 60Hz (for interpolation) display the XR max number should be lower than with a 120Hz display. Also as you said we don't know what we are getting. Let's see my TV model, for example: XD80 in EU, XBR800D in USA. We get this:

XBR800D: XR 240

XD8005: XR 200

XD8099: XR 400

I believe we can assume XD8099 is better than XD8005. But what about XBR800D vs XD8099? Does an higher XR number really mean anything? Or is it just commercial BS? Which one is better for 24 or 30fps signals?

Then I am not sure interpolation is such a good thing. At least for gaming. With 30fps games shouldn't it automatically add at least a 16.67ms delay? It needs to wait for the second frame to make the interpolation. While it can display the previous real frame in the frame before (at 60Hz). Also with my TV the "Fluid" settings make a very visibile soap opera effect. Probably with the black frame insertion (available on 120Hz and higher displays I believe) things get much better.

Instead I'd really love to know what actually happens when I set the custom/personal Motionflow at 1-1. Just a step above the minimum values for both parameters. The image even gets darker, which I am not sure what it has to do with frames interpolation. Not that I see any difference on regular videos anyway. The only time I notice a difference is with the videos made specifically to test the frame interpolation.

Re: KDL-40W700C Panel Refresh Rate 50 Hz but says Motion Flow 200Hz!!!

sonyw805c — Sat, 02 Sep 2017 11:29:26 GMT

you are looking for information about motionflow like

this about black frame insertion?

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w850c